[Jehryn04]

My friend, Icemage, and I ran various tests regarding Physical Damage -% gear, and he and I recorded the results. He compiled the results in a thread over a FFXIOnline.com, which can be found HERE

Pasted from the original thread.

WARNING: If you hate math and research, stop reading this post right now.

Found some time yesterday to test out a theory which has lately been kicked around on some other forums. At the request of Jehryn(RDM75), who shows up here on FFXIOnline as Dakkon, I'm posting here the results of our test regarding various items which grant resistance to physical damage:

Test subjects:

Icemage WHM75/BLM37, wielding Earth Staff to tank.

Jehryn RDM75/BLM37, using various combinations of Earth Staff, Genbu's Shield, Cheviot Cape, and Jelly Ring

Target monster: Cactuar in Western Altepa Desert. Chosen specifically for its physical attack "1000 Needles", which always deals exactly 1000 damage, divided equally amongst all players/pets in range.

Item statistics:

Earth Staff: Listed as "Physical Damage Taken -20%"
Cheviot Cape: Listed as "Physical Damage Taken -5%"
Jelly Ring: Listed as "Physical Damage Taken -5%, Magical Damage Taken +5%"
Genbu's Shield: Listed as "Physical Damage Taken -10%"

At the time we tested, we also explored the theory which has been kicked around which states that Cheviot Cape has a hidden effect which gives it an additional 5% damage resistance during nights (in-game).

----

The Theory: Jehryn mentioned that there are discussions which are being made on other forums (KI, Alla) that suggest that multiple -Damage% items do not, in fact, stack, but instead are multiplied in a "stepped" manner: i.e. the theory states that if you had the 3 items listed above, you'd take 20% off your base damage from the Earth Staff, then 5% off of what damage remained, then 5% damage off of what is left after those two were applied. I expressed doubts about it when he mentioned it, but I outline the basics of the theory here to facilitate discussion:

Damage calculation per "The Theory":

1000 Needles = 1000 damage / 2 players = 500 damage per player.

500 damage - 20% (E Staff) = 400
400 - 5% (Cheviot Cape) = 380
380 - 5% = 362 expected "theoretical" damage

Damage calculation per "common wisdom" which states that all damage% items are added together and calculated at the same time:

1000 Needles = 1000 damage / 2 players = 500 damage per player
500 damage - 30% (E Staff + C Cape + J Ring) = 350 expected common wisdom damage

---

Testing Results (Actual damage, expected damage via common wisdom, expected damage via "The Theory")

(a) 20% Earth Staff only: 400, 400, 400
( 10% Genbu's Shield only: 451, 450, 450
© 5% Jelly Ring only: 476, 475, 475
(d) 5% Cheviot Cape (daytime) only: 476, 475, 475
(e) 10% Cheviot Cape (nighttime) only: 453, 450, 450
(f) 5% Cheviot Cape (daytime) + 5% Jelly Ring: 453, 450, 451.3
(g) 10% Genbu's Shield + 5% Jelly Ring: 427, 425, 427.5
(h) 10% Genbu's Shield + 5% Cheviot Cape (daytime): 427, 425, 427.5
(i) 10% Genbu's Shield + 5% Cheviot Cape (daytime) + 5% Jelly Ring: 404, 400, 406.1
(j) 10% Genbu's Shield + 10% Cheviot Cape (nighttime) + 5% Jelly Ring: 380, 375, 384.75
(k) 20% Earth Staff + 10% Cheviot Cape (nighttime) + 5% Jelly Ring: 330, 325, 342.0

Careful observation of the discrepancy between all 3 sets of numbers above will show that (a) there's definitely something wrong and ( "The Theory" doesn't account for what's happening.

So what's really happening? Here's what we've come up with:

We think that Jelly Ring, Cheviot Cape, and Genbu's Shield do not fully live up to their promise.

Genbu's Shield: This item appears to give approximately -9.7% physical resistance, not -10% as advertised in its description.

Cheviot Cape: This item appears to give approximately -4.7% physical resistance during daytime, and -9.4% physical resistance at night, not the 5% as advertised.

Jelly Ring: This item appears to give approximately -4.7% physical resistance, not 5% as advertised.

Substituting these numbers into the above calculations makes them fit perfectly when using the "common wisdom" calculation (i.e. add up all physical resists and subtract them at the same time).

CONCLUSION

The common wisdom is right about physical damage effects stacking. However, certain items which reduce physical damage by a percentage do not give the exact amount that they describe.

[Sword]

Very nice. The reason those probably dont live up to the expected values is because so many variables such as day, moon, weather, ect effects damage and resistance in some way. Just my theory on the random little numbers in damage.

[Jehryn04]

Except that 1000 needles isn't magical, and that it's a constant damage.

[Intense]

Jehryn04 :
Except that 1000 needles isn't magical

correct me if im wrong, but skillchains arent magical either, but its possible for a mob to resist them.
perhaps in some way, we are able to resist certain things under certain conditions as well....

[Afija]

Like what? Some of those needles missed?

[AzureSun]

I have been hit with 1k needles and taken less then 1k dammage when I was alone and had no buffs on so I believe it can be partially resisted. Anyways the math clearly shows that it does indeed add it all togeather then subtract it and not just go from biggest to smallest like most people believe.

I would say further testing is needed but this is still an excilent start and shows that stacking up that -%dmg is indeed quite viable (and in my opinion much better then stacking evasion as rdms dont evade for shit)

[Jehryn04]

AzureSun :
I have been hit with 1k needles and taken less then 1k dammage when I was alone and had no buffs on so I believe it can be partially resisted.

Stoneskin, Phalanx, -% Physical Damage gear all subtract from 1000 needles.

[Rhyis.]

I've been naked with no buffs and not taken 1000 damage.

[Ohemgee]

So theyre just rounded off.

[AzureSun]

Stoneskin, Phalanx, -% Physical Damage gear all subtract from 1000 needles.

Read what I posted...

I have been hit with 1k needles and taken less then 1k dammage when I was alone and had no buffs on so I believe it can be partially resisted.

That means no phalanx, no stoneskin, was on rng actually not rdm so no Genbus either. I have taken 500, 250, 750, odd numbers like this on many ocasions. You can resist some of the dmg.

[Teslas]

I've taken 1000 needles solo several times, always from the EP ones in gustav tunnel (I'm a newb, sneak dropped while afk). I have NEVER taken less than 1000 base damage. I've never heard of anyone taking less than 1000 damage... can you take some screenshots?

Anyways, even if partial resists are possible, the numbers that were shown in that study don't resemble anything near a 3/4 or 1/2 or the other common fractional resists.

Excellent post jehryn, thanks for the time spent testing.

edit- anyone know when phalanx is calculated? It seems like it's the last thing calculated when taking damage, with the exception of stoneskin.

[Linkinfate]

If you are with someone the damage spreads out you know. Even if those people aren't in your party.

[Meo]

1000 needles is a true AoE... it'll hit anyone in range and divide damage accordinly. So if you're watching someone fight a cactus out of pt, you can still get hit with it and help lessen the damage they tanke.

Intense: 100% of all skillchains are elemental... it's the bases on which they are created / can be predicted.

[Masago]

sticky please

good shit

[Qbert]

hmmm sticky worthy indeed, but im going to try tests out myself i know it dosent directly stack but we'll figure out how well it will :yes

[AzureSun]

i know it dosent directly stack but we'll figure out how well it will

Acording to the test results posted at start of this page it does indeed directly stack.

[NeoSuplex]

Jehryn04 :
Test subjects:

Icemage WHM75/BLM37, wielding Earth Staff to tank.

Jehryn RDM75/BLM37, using various combinations of Earth Staff, Genbu's Shield, Cheviot Cape, and Jelly Ring

Target monster: Cactuar in Western Altepa Desert. Chosen specifically for its physical attack "1000 Needles", which always deals exactly 1000 damage, divided equally amongst all players/pets in range.

Item statistics:

Earth Staff: Listed as "Physical Damage Taken -20%"
Cheviot Cape: Listed as "Physical Damage Taken -5%"
Jelly Ring: Listed as "Physical Damage Taken -5%, Magical Damage Taken +5%"
Genbu's Shield: Listed as "Physical Damage Taken -10%"

At the time we tested, we also explored the theory which has been kicked around which states that Cheviot Cape has a hidden effect which gives it an additional 5% damage resistance during nights (in-game).

----

The Theory: Jehryn mentioned that there are discussions which are being made on other forums (KI, Alla) that suggest that multiple -Damage% items do not, in fact, stack, but instead are multiplied in a "stepped" manner: i.e. the theory states that if you had the 3 items listed above, you'd take 20% off your base damage from the Earth Staff, then 5% off of what damage remained, then 5% damage off of what is left after those two were applied. I expressed doubts about it when he mentioned it, but I outline the basics of the theory here to facilitate discussion:

Damage calculation per "The Theory":

1000 Needles = 1000 damage / 2 players = 500 damage per player.

500 damage - 20% (E Staff) = 400
400 - 5% (Cheviot Cape) = 380
380 - 5% = 362 expected "theoretical" damage

Damage calculation per "common wisdom" which states that all damage% items are added together and calculated at the same time:

1000 Needles = 1000 damage / 2 players = 500 damage per player
500 damage - 30% (E Staff + C Cape + J Ring) = 350 expected common wisdom damage

---

Testing Results (Actual damage, expected damage via common wisdom, expected damage via "The Theory")

(a) 20% Earth Staff only: 400, 400, 400
( 10% Genbu's Shield only: 451, 450, 450
© 5% Jelly Ring only: 476, 475, 475
(d) 5% Cheviot Cape (daytime) only: 476, 475, 475
(e) 10% Cheviot Cape (nighttime) only: 453, 450, 450
(f) 5% Cheviot Cape (daytime) + 5% Jelly Ring: 453, 450, 451.3
(g) 10% Genbu's Shield + 5% Jelly Ring: 427, 425, 427.5
(h) 10% Genbu's Shield + 5% Cheviot Cape (daytime): 427, 425, 427.5
(i) 10% Genbu's Shield + 5% Cheviot Cape (daytime) + 5% Jelly Ring: 404, 400, 406.1
(j) 10% Genbu's Shield + 10% Cheviot Cape (nighttime) + 5% Jelly Ring: 380, 375, 384.75
(k) 20% Earth Staff + 10% Cheviot Cape (nighttime) + 5% Jelly Ring: 330, 325, 342.0

Careful observation of the discrepancy between all 3 sets of numbers above will show that (a) there's definitely something wrong and ( "The Theory" doesn't account for what's happening.

So what's really happening? Here's what we've come up with:

We think that Jelly Ring, Cheviot Cape, and Genbu's Shield do not fully live up to their promise.

Genbu's Shield: This item appears to give approximately -9.7% physical resistance, not -10% as advertised in its description.

Cheviot Cape: This item appears to give approximately -4.7% physical resistance during daytime, and -9.4% physical resistance at night, not the 5% as advertised.

Jelly Ring: This item appears to give approximately -4.7% physical resistance, not 5% as advertised.

Substituting these numbers into the above calculations makes them fit perfectly when using the "common wisdom" calculation (i.e. add up all physical resists and subtract them at the same time).

CONCLUSION

The common wisdom is right about physical damage effects stacking. However, certain items which reduce physical damage by a percentage do not give the exact amount that they describe.

Something about that test doesn't sit right.... For one thing, Cheviot Cape is completely unreliable, since you can't really know for sure what happens at night. More importantly, you say that Jelly and Genbu's don't give their true Reduction values but Earth staff does.
Also, assuming that they do give the values you stated and stack with addition, either the solo item Reduction values are wrong or the stacked... Both in some cases. It seems as though you just took a solution using algebra assuming that they stacked with addition; obviously this could be reversed and displayed as a self test leading to the conclusion that they stack with addition.

Now, regarding Needle being 'resisted', that doesn't account for tests in which the recieved damage was Higher than is should have been; a resist would have made the damage even lower.

My suggestion: you need a bigger sample that excludes the Cape. From what I gather, you did each set once and assumed it would be constant, but people are reporting taking less damage... I don't really have much expierience with needles so I can't say one way or the other.

[Unaisis]

the reason why it never hit you with a total 1000, is because you died before it can land all 1000 needles. there is no way you can dodge 1000, no in this FF or any other FF's lol


::Edit:: Spelling O.o

[Teslas]

Please read what you quoted, and then reread what you posted. Edit out idiocy at your leisure.

[Sagus]

the reason why it never hit you with a total 1000, is because you died before it can land all 1000 needles. there is no way you can dodge 1000, no in this FF or any other FF's lol

Do you even play this game? or any other FFs? >_> 1000 Needles isn't 1000 seperate attacks... and getting over 1000 hp is fairly easy.